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I/eye
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Topic: WTH? China?Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 00:47 |
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then why would you mention Tang and Silla as if to say they were the states in the very heart of Chinese and Korean history? just to mislead me?
and it is more than just phonetic similarity. trust me
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Toluy
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Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 01:59 |
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I never say Tang is the start of China and Silla is the start of Korea, so where is the logic fallacy?
root of the name Korea: Koguryo -> Koryo -> Korea
What do you mean? If you want to prove that Koguryo is Korea, I think the phonetic similarity is unfounded as the accent of present language has deviated from that of ancient.
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I/eye
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Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 22:20 |
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Tang is not the start of China and Silla is not the start of Korea, so that logic is pretty weak.
and how's this for relation..
root of the name Korea: Koguryo -> Koryo -> Korea
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Toluy
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 08:49 |
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Thanks flyingzone
I would say, present China is not ancient China the Tang empire and present Korea is not ancient Korea the Silla. Koguryo, a state reletive to both Tang and Silla, belongs neither of them.
One more question, Silla historians means historians of Silla or historians who research to Silla history?
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flyingzone
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 13:22 |
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Toluy, it is extremely hard to find a neutral voice when it comes to this particular dispute between China and Korea, as you may notice yourself if you hang around. You are at your liberty to google the term "Northeast Project" to see which version you "buy". The following is an article that provides some sort of a background to this whole issue, and it is written by someone who, in my opinion, is quite neutral. But of course, that's only my opinion which my fellow forumers are free to dispute (and I assure you, Toluy, they have indeed done so).
The War of Words Between South Korea and China Over An Ancient Kingdom: Why Both Sides Are MisguidedBy Mark ByingtonMr. Byington is a Postdoctoral Fellow at Harvard's Korea Institute. He completed his PhD program at Harvard in the field of Korean history, though he also trained in archaeology. His research interests cover the early history and archaeology of the Korean peninsula and Northeast China. He conducted field research in Northeast China from the early 1990s and has lived in both Northeast China and Korea.
"A leading [Korean] opposition party leader on Monday underlined the necessity of joining forces with Asian countries or territories, including Tibet, to deal with China's attempt to distort the history of the ancient Korean kingdom of Koguryo." Korea Times (Aug. 23, 2004) The present academic and political debate unfolding between China and Korea over which state “owns” the historical heritage of Koguryo (pronounced Koh-goo-ryuh) is most often understood as a development of the past year or two. However, the Chinese position, which sees Koguryo as a Chinese state, developed over the course of the twentieth century, and is largely a product of a new way of viewing the past and present Chinese states through the lens of nationalism, race, and ethnicity. In the late 1930s a Chinese historian named Jin Yufu developed a linear model of racial descent for groups of peoples who occupied the Manchuria region from the earliest times to the present. He saw all of these peoples throughout time as belonging to one of three descent lineages, one of which – the Fuyu (K. Puyo) lineage – were the builders of the states called Puyo, Koguryo, and Paekche. Jin believed that with the destruction of Koguryo in 668 there were no more states established in Manchuria by the Fuyu lineage, but the remainder of this lineage became the present Korean nationality. Later historians of Northeast China built upon this model of linear descent developed by Jin Yufu. In the People's Republic of China (PRC), history has tended to be written in such a way as to use the past to validate the present political order. In particular, history writing has often come to incorporate the same language that is used to discuss present-day policy governing the rights of ethnic minorities in the PRC. Just as these minorities, who for the most part occupy the PRC border regions, are described as properly belonging to the PRC because their ancestors, defined as those peoples and states that once bordered China proper, were likewise part of a greater Chinese state of the past. This formula is quite obviously based on the premise that any pre-modern people or states that occupied any part of what is now the PRC are defined as having been part of the Chinese state of the past. Some Chinese historians view it as “unscientific” to use this as a sole criterion for deciding which states and peoples should be included as part of the early Chinese state, and they often turn instead to obscure arguments involving ethnic affiliation and the supposed existence of a pre-modern Chinese super-nation, within which existed many ethnic groups who nevertheless viewed themselves and one another as members of some inclusive super-ethnic body. These ways of viewing the past are obviously contrived to address certain very present-day concerns, but they are also built upon a historical view that developed over many decades as a result of the influence of Western notions of race, nation, and ethnicity. Such arguments regarding the alleged Chinese-ness of the states and peoples surrounding the pre-modern Chinese state dissolve quickly when they are subjected to critical analysis against the historical record. This applies also to the case of Koguryo, which was clearly not a Chinese state in any sense, as demonstrated abundantly by China’s own dynastic histories. But in order to fall into line with the currently preferred way of viewing the Chinese past as essentially a reflection of the present multi-ethnic state, it was absolutely necessary to include Koguryo among the “minority nationalities” of ancient China. This is based solely upon the fact that some of the territories of Koguryo are today part of the PRC. This peculiar way of depicting pre-modern history is clearly grounded in the practical desire to provide security for all of China’s borders – these territories are today Chinese because they have historically always been Chinese. The Chinese view of Koguryo that has so upset Koreans since last December is therefore not a new development at all. It is rather an outgrowth of a historiographical view that has developed over the course of the twentieth century, with an overlay that emphasizes the existence of a Chinese super-nation of the past, such that Koguryo can be claimed as one of the minority nationalities of pre-modern China. The core of the present debate can be said, more precisely, to have begun in 1993, when, at a conference on Koguryo history held at the town of Ji’an on the Chinese side of the Yalu River, a North Korean historian charged that the Chinese view of Koguryo as a Chinese state is a flawed one, based solely upon that fact that some Koguryo territories are today part of the PRC. This was the first real challenge to the Chinese position regarding Koguryo. The Chinese scholar Sun Jinji, one of the most vocal proponents of the Chinese Koguryo view, responded with a rebuttal that denied the Koreans any link with Koguryo. He argued that Koguryo was a Chinese state because 1) it developed out of the Han Chinese military prefecture of Xuantu; and 2) that Koguryo kings accepted investiture from Chinese emperors. Sun also adjusted the linear descent model of Jin Yufu so that the Fuyu lineage is no longer seen as developing into modern Koreans (though he gives no explanation for this adjustment – he merely states it as a given). These arguments do not hold up well under analysis, and do not constitute a valid case for Koguryo’s alleged Chinese-ness. But the argument has nevertheless been taken up by the proponents of the Chinese Koguryo view. Beginning around 1994, South Korean tourists began to visit Koguryo archaeological sites in China in increasing numbers, very often engaging in nationalistic displays and paying reverence before the tombs of Koguryo kings. While such actions were not intended to provoke, many Chinese scholars and authorities perceived these actions as threats. Fears of Korean irredentism spread, and the provinces of Liaoning and Jilin responded by placing all Koguryo remains off-limits to foreigners. A series of robberies of Koguryo mural tombs between 1995 and 2000 made the matter worse, and it became very difficult for non-Chinese (especially Koreans) to conduct research on Koguryo in China. Chinese historians stepped up their efforts to justify their claims that Koguryo was a Chinese state. While these events unfolded from 1993 to 2003, nobody in South Korea paid them much notice. What finally attracted attention in Seoul was a series of events involving the Chinese and North Korean applications to UNESCO to have their respective Koguryo remains designated as World Heritage sites. North Korea made the initial bid in 2000, and by 2003 its nomination application was submitted to the World Heritage Committee for consideration. In the interim, the UNESCO evaluation team addressed some problems with the North Korean application – the inspection team had been denied access to some of the tombs, while at least one other tomb had been extensively reconstructed, which called its authenticity into question. These problems were noted and submitted to UNESCO. Around the same time, China began its own application process to have its Koguryo remains registered as World Heritage sites. Since the leader of the inspection team that noted problems with the North Korean application was Chinese, the action was viewed in South Korea as a Chinese attempt to scuttle North Korea’s bid, so that China could rush in and have its own Koguryo remains registered. However, the inspection team’s objections were quite valid, and any team leader would certainly have voiced similar objections in the team report. In December of 2003, seventeen South Korean historical societies formed an ad hoc group to address what it saw as China’s distortions of Korea’s history, focusing most strongly on the treatment given to Koguryo in the papers of the Northeast Project, a government funded organization in Beijing that was established in 2002 for the purpose of studying historical issues of Northeast China. The South Koreans objected to the Northeast Project’s portrayal of Koguryo as one of the minority nationalities of ancient China and the assertions that Koguryo was merely a dependent regional authority of China. It was popularly understood in Seoul that the Northeast Project was set up for the purpose of claiming Koguryo for China, through the dissemination of guided historical studies and the financing of archaeological work on Koguryo sites in preparation for the UNESCO bid. However, the arguments made in the publications of the Northeast Project are the very same arguments made by scholars like Sun Jinji since 1993. Nevertheless, it is still popularly assumed in South Korea that the Chinese claim is a new one, generated in the past two or three years in order to take Koguryo’s heritage away from Korea. The justification is understood to be that China was preparing a case for a preemptive territorial claim in the case of a North Korean collapse. In my view, the Chinese position is a natural one, though historically flawed, that developed in a predictable way along with the present view of the Chinese past as a reflection of the present structure of the multi-ethnic state. The concerns are primarily territorial – this is why Chinese scholars have been so unwavering in their insistence that Koguryo was in fact a Chinese state. There may be some concerns among some Chinese scholars and politicians that a North Korean collapse might result in a change in the borders, but to China’s disadvantage. But it is probably more important to these scholars and politicians that the present way of viewing the past as a device to validate the present order of things be upheld and any cost – not because of any particular fears that ethnic Koreans in China’s Northeast might want to break away, but more because any admission that Koreans might have a valid historical claim to some PRC territories might incite unrest among other border groups, particularly in the Southwest and Northwest. This would explain why the Chinese have been so unwilling either to address the issue as a political matter or to back down on the academic position. To summarize: In my view the present debate on Koguryo is just the most recent phase of a process that began in the early twentieth century, and which has taken on a specific shape and tone since 1993. The Chinese case is historically indefensible, but there are valid reasons Chinese scholars and politicians would wish to advocate such a position. The Korean objections to the Chinese position are fully understandable, but most Koreans, I believe, misunderstand the Chinese arguments as having particularly sinister undertones – they view the Chinese actions as a prelude to an active aggression against Korea in the event of a radical change in the present situation on the Korean peninsula. Speaking as someone who has followed the progression of this debate since 1993, I see the Chinese motivations in an entirely different light, and I urge concerned Koreans to make an effort to see the debate in the broad sweep of history. Taken in context, the Chinese motivation is much less sinister, and is grounded in concerns which Koreans would probably understand as valid. The Chinese “distortions” of the Korean past should be seen for what they are, and Koreans should understand exactly why the Chinese persist in their (otherwise incomprehensible) refusal to back off of the Chinese Koguryo position. Koguryo was a state that existed from about the first century BC until 668. It originated among tribal groups living in the valley of the Hun River (a tributary of the Yalu) in the present-day provinces of Liaoning and Jilin in the People’s Republic of China. By the early first century Koguryo leaders had begun to exert their authority in surrounding regions, especially in the northern part of the Korean peninsula. From 75 BC until about 106 AD the governors of a small military prefecture of the Chinese Han dynasty, named Xuantu, engaged Koguryo leaders in a client relationship, under which those leaders registered their populations annually with the Han governor, paid taxes, and made men available on occasion for corvée labor. In exchange, the Koguryo leaders gained Han recognition of their status, along with various prestige items and access to Han trade. Koguryo leaders were otherwise free to exercise government over their people as they wished. During the first century, however, the leaders of Koguryo were no longer satisfied with the terms of the relationship with Han, and they began to refuse to behave as subordinates to the local governor. Around 106 Koguryo was strong enough to force the removal of the military prefecture, and it is about this time that Koguryo society had reached a state level of complexity. Throughout Koguryo’s existence as a state, its kings typically engaged Chinese leaders in warfare rather than as allies. When relations were peaceful, however, Koguryo kings accepted investiture from Chinese emperors, which was part of the price to be paid for engaging Chinese states in trade and diplomatic relations. Although Chinese histories treat Koguryo during these times as a tributary of the Chinese emperor, in reality the emperor was powerless to exercise any direct control over Koguryo or its kings (a fact clearly illustrated by these same Chinese historical works). In the early seventh century the Koguryo leadership shifted to a usurper, who took full control over the state government and ruled for many years. When he died in 666, his relatives fought one another for the right of succession, and this struggle caused the Koguryo state to fragment. In 668 the allied armies of Tang China and the Korean state of Silla rushed in to finish off what was left of the Koguryo state. Tang initially tried to incorporate Koguryo’s territories into its own system of territorial administration, but popular resistance, aided by Silla, forced Tang to withdraw shortly thereafter. Silla incorporated the southernmost territories of Koguryo, while most of the rest eventually came under the control of a new state called Parhae (Ch. Bohai), which rose in eastern Manchuria in 696. Silla historians incorporated the legacy of Koguryo into Silla’s historiography, and the present-day historiographical traditions of both Koreas stem from this seventh century view of a peninsular state emerging from the early Three Kingdoms (Koguryo, Silla and Paekche). Surrounding states, both in the Chinese mainland and in the Japanese archipelago, acknowledged that Koguryo was a state whose heritage belonged to the later peninsular states of Koryo (918-1392) and Choson (1392-1910). |
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Toluy
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 12:30 |
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Who can elaborate something about the 'notorious Northeast Project'? |
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 23:47 |
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Koguryo doesnt hold legitimacy over Gija choson, In jumong it claimed Koguryo is successor to Gojoseon which actually neglected Gija Choson. Koguryo started in Liaoning, which previously was already part of China, but in Jumong its as if Han just invaded the "land of gojoseon" which is not true. The term Joseon/Choson was originated in China's Liaoning province and is associated with the state of Gija Choson.
Its only with the relocation of Gija Choson, had the term come to refer to northern korean territory. somewhat like the example of "new england", which is a common phenomenon. But in Jumong, it implied that Liaoning belong to "gojoseon" before Han invaded, there was no such entity as "gojoseon" in previous Qin and Yan era. Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Sep-2006 at 00:02 |
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I/eye
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 23:30 |
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[whisper]did you take like 25 minutes to write that?[/whisper] anyway,
yes, the starting point was historians.. acting as a counter to Japanese imperialism way back then.
nowadays, only the immature spread such ideas, embarrasing other Koreans while at it
and IMO, it's even more immature to counter it at an official governmental level
about the dramas, i think it's a little less immature to counter official distortion with fictional distortion
but Han defeating Choson before setting up the commandaries is not a distortion Edited by I/eye - 20-Sep-2006 at 23:32 |
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[URL=http://imageshack.us]
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 22:31 |
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But the map you cited would make it a serious territorical dispute. the map is a misleading "evidence".
Pan-Korean ideas could not have been occurred and spread without involment of Korean historians.
Its a counter to the rise of revisionist views from the Korean side.
In this sensitive time, some Korean dramas are not only misleading in their historical sense, but also could affect Korean audiance. If you believed that map you provided has "legitimacy", then you might also think whats in Korean dramas are "true".
For instance, the drama Jumong, present that Han invaded former Korean state and set up Xuantu prefecture in Liaodong. But as i have demonstrated before, before Han, the region was already part of Qin, Yan state. There was no "Korean state" . The only state before Yan in the Liaodong was Gija Choson which was another political entity to that of Koguryo.
Im not accusing you of pan-Korean nationalist, i just wanted to remind you, the map you used is cited by pan-Korean nationalist. |
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I/eye
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 22:00 |
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1. there is NO territorial dispute between Korea and China. no one in Korea realistically expects to "recover" Gando even if it belonged to Choson 2. most problematic Korean nationalists are civilian idiots who are seen as idiots by other Koreans
3. most problematic Chinese nationalists are historians working for the PRC government in an official historical revisionist project
4. Korean historical dramas focus more on drama than history. Korean dramas in general are quite melodramatic
5. we have an idiom that says Buddhas only see Buddha and pieces of crap only see crap. do I look like a nationalist to you Char? Edited by I/eye - 20-Sep-2006 at 22:09 |
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 11:26 |
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The relevance is always there, but when it comes specifically to Sino-Korean case, borderlines were and is now set along the two rivers, which both borders North Korea. Not south Korea.
The power imbalance could had enabled the Ming to claim northern Korea, it has two basis, the region once belonged to China in ancient time, its ruled by the Yuan, Ming could also claim the land on this basis, but it didnt. Instead it recognized Choson's control over northern Korean which for centuries didnt belong to it. While use of distinct natural landmarks such as Yalu and Tumen rivers ensured peace between the two nations for centuries. Cultures dont clash themselves, its the wrong policy and judgement made that will cause clash. In this case, the two nations both gained territory and border stability.
"I am not saying that this is the climate under which the Sino-Korean agreement was reached""
The reason why Korean states from the south didnt extend to northern part of DPRK was the region was under Liao, then Jin, Yuan rule. There was claim by King U of Koryo which covered Chinese liaoning, similarly there was also claim over lands in north Korea by Ming, but Koryo was replaced by Choson Yi dynasty, and borderlines using Yalu and Tumen rivers were recognized by the two states.
Thats why any claim beyond Yalu-Tumen borderlines is unilateral behaviour, which will not be recognized. China pretty much dropped any claims over north Korea since the Ming, it has been sticking to the original agreement.
The PRC only developed its "north-east project"rather recently, which is coped with rising of pan-Korean nationalism.
The evidences are there, it only takes sane attitude to review them and have better understanding of history before one can even claim anything. For instance,using maps made by European missionaries and so are hypocritical, since such claims disregard of maps made by Korea itself, which better illustrate the borderlines as defined by the Yalu and Tumen. Edited by The Charioteer - 20-Sep-2006 at 11:47 |
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flyingzone
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 09:40 |
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The complexity of any territorial dispute, not just that between Korea and China, can only be understood in the context of history and current geopolitics. Indeed I see the relevance of Omar and Vivek's arguments even though they are not specifically referring to the Sino-Korean case in question. History has time and again shown us that power is behind every legitimacy claim. It is almost like an axiom in history. So while it is probably not accurate to say that bilateral agreement reached during the Ming-Choson era was reached under coersion, who can say with 100% certainty that the power imbalance between the two kingdoms at that time had nothing to do with the establishment of something as artificially-defined and arbitrary as national borders? An extreme case of the "power defines legitimacy" axiom is the many unequal treaties signed between Qing China and the Western Imperial powers. (I am not saying that this is the climate under which the Sino-Korean agreement was reached. So please do not quote me out of context.) There's nothing "legitimate" about those treaties. But if you were a British or French Imperialist back then, and if you asked for his perspective on those treaties, they would tell you they see nothing "illegitimate" in them.
Prior to the reaching of the Sino-Korean agreement regarding the demarcation of the two countries' territories, can one be so absolutely sure that there had not been any similar back-and-forth territorial claims between the two as we witness today? Also, one must bear in mind that the systematic use of modern historiographic, cartographic, and ethnographic techniques to back up one's territorial claims is a rather recent activity. (I will get back to this point later.) Yet the "ambiguity" of the Sino-Korean border was nevertheless resolved with the signing of an agreement. But of course one could question, "Why that particular agreement?" With better historical research and more archaelogical findings, one could start adding weight to this question of "why".
However, I think Charioteer's position is equally right. Borders between countries have to be drawn based on something. If one keeps on using newly-discovered historical "facts" or archaelogical findings to re-write agreements, then no geographical border between any country can ever be said to be legitimate.
Unfortunately, the Sino-Korean border dispute has been fuelled by nationalist sentiments - ON BOTH SIDES. Like the territorial disputes themselves, no one can say for sure who re-ignited those sentiments (which have always existed). Due to the instability of North Korea, some Koreans are worried about China's territorial ambition on those lands in case the North Korean regime collapses. While one can accuse them of being paranoid, the Chinese themselves do not exactly help to calm the Korean worry by their own gestures (e.g. the notorious Northeast Project). The Koreans are also not entirely innocent. They are also seen by some Chinese as eyeing on current Chinese territories which may have been historically inhabited by the Korean people. In other words, the Koreans also have their own little gestures.
To claim moral superiority over another and to assert 100% certainty in this dispute are not just wrong, but also hypocritical. The only sane thing to do is to de-politicize history, to share and communicate historical and archaeological findings, and last but not least, to look to the future rather than to the past.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 09:05 |
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You were the one turned it from Sino-Korean dispute to "discussion of moderation".
If you think when talking about "moderation" it should be in private, then you should have PMed me instead of accusing me publicly that my post is "potentially provocative", since its also part of the "moderation". Just my suggestion. Edited by The Charioteer - 20-Sep-2006 at 09:08 |
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 07:38 |
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Basically, the borderlines should be along the Yalu river in Liaoning, and Tumen river in Jilin, the two natural landmarks as Sino-Korean borderlines was set hundred of years ago, and it was agreed bilaterally by the two sides,if you have remotely thought it was "forced deal" then i would say you should really get some history reading on the issue. The Korean states absorbed elements from former Korguyo state, but for centuries, northern part of Korean peninsula was not inhabited and controlled by the Korean states as they developed from the South. When the Ming replaced the Yuan, northern Korea was former Yuan territory, but the Ming gave it up, and Choson forced the Manchus out of northern Korea, this was not what King U wanted, but it was actually a gain for Korea. If the Ming also claim lands thats been ruled by Chinese entities over a thousand years ago, then there should be confrontation rather than peace between the two nations.
If you would like to see confrontations between the two Asian nations, then you statement is not vague indeed.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:59 |
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His statement wont even mention anything remotely close to Sino-Korean history. Without even some understanding and background of history, what you have been doing is generalization and distraction.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:57 |
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I would be glad to write more things if you would get in with more historical sense. Edited by The Charioteer - 20-Sep-2006 at 08:37 |
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:53 |
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Any discussion of moderation should be directed to me or another mod via PM. Please do not discuss it here. Thank you.
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 20-Sep-2006 at 06:54 |
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:48 |
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I object to your unreasonable accuse, this is well-known idiom in China, it reveals a truth, i dont know why you think this is provocative?
My point was Pan-Korean nationalism could play negative consequence in the current Sino-Korean dispute and they have been neglected on occasions. But neglection wont make it go away.
I dont think its "provocative" thing to mention. If we dont talk about this, how can the two sides solve the unnecessary dispute?
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:40 |
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Ok then, you define what legitimate means. I don't think I was vague, I was fairly exactly in saying that it doesn't exist in any circumstance. |
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:38 |
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His statement is right in context. Both the sides claiming the legitimacy of their thoughts, which really are a belief. As i said the more powerful person of the time exercises legtimacy, where as the other just continues to claim it.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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