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Forum LockedIs Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:09
Why don't you copy them here then?
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:05
There are some good articles in JStor, we know that Aura-Mazda in Old Persian was pronounced as Hormazd in Middle Persian, it is very obvious that there was a "h" sound in "Aura".
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:54
It is called "intervocalic h", I'm searching about it to find a good article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=intervocalic-h+iranian
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:51

Dutch is unique in having it among Germanic languages, isn't it? And it's not in the Romance languages.

Maybe they caught it fraternising with the Atrobates or someone, since it's in Celtic.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 17-Jun-2008 at 14:51
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:22
Aha. I didn't mark this in Old Dutch, sorry. Nevertheless, Old Low Franconian didn't have it according to Koebler.

Don't forget about your answer.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 14:31
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:06
What your links say about "voiced velar fricative"? I just found it about the Old Dutch: "g was most likely a fricative /É£/, much like in modern Dutch."
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:01
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

How do you know that?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_dutch#Sound_developments

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altniederfraenkisch-neuhochdeutscheswoerterbuch/VorwortAltniederfraenkisch.pdf


You still owe me your answer to my question.
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:45
How do you know that?
 
O.E. gan "to go," from W.Gmc. *gai-/*gæ- (cf. O.Fris. gan, M.Du. gaen, Ger. gehen), from PIE *ghei-
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:35
Yes I wanted to be sure that you're not talking about the voiceless counter part. Sure, it has it. So what?? It developed later, probably during the course of Middle Dutch - it wasn't present in Old Low Franconian or Old Dutch.
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is Dutch a Germanic language or not?


What do you mean by Dutch now?? Please clarify what you're talking about.
You know I'm talking about "voiced velar fricative", Dutch has certainly this sound (such "g" in gaan "to go")
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that you can find all Avestan Consonants in the Germanic "own" words


No you can't. And additionally, you can find a few that Avestan lacks.




Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 13:14
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:10
I've got one more question, which I wanted ask you a few days ago but somehow forgot to do so, so here it is:

What is your source for this??

"a" before a vowel is spelled "h", so aota=hota & aurvant=hurvant
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is Dutch a Germanic language or not?


What do you mean by Dutch now?? Please clarify what you're talking about.
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that you can find all Avestan Consonants in the Germanic "own" words, you say some modern Germanic languages lack some sounds, what does it prove? Isn't it obvious that they have lost those sounds?


No it isn't. And no, they haven't lost those sounds, they never had them before, some languages developed some of those sounds later. Firstly, no linguistic evidence points towards your nonsense. Secondly, the Persians were far away from Germanic people (or English), so there is no way how they could have influenced Germanic peoples (the same about Avestan language). Thirdly, those are not loan words, those are words/compounds from PIE language. Avestan or Germanic did not create them, they just 'modified' the old PIE words.

And about that English - sure it's a Germanic language. But you were no longer proposing what the topic here is. You were trying to get back to the Saxon-Scythian rubbish.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 09:40
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 11:26
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You said "kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so..."


The link says: 'gh' (in English, not Avestan!) was pronounced as 'ch' in Scottish 'loch' - and that's voiceless velar fricative.

The source about Avestan says that voiced velar fricative is often transcribed as 'gh'. And as you know, I was talking about the voiced one.

The voiceless velar fricative is transcribed differently in each language! Slavic use 'ch' or 'h', Celtic use 'ch', some use 'kh', Spanish used once 'x' (Mexico) and now uses 'j' and so on. And it's still the same sound.
Irish also has the voiced velar fricative, which is spelt either 'dh' or 'gh' (h being considered not a letter in Irish, but more like the Russian soft sign - an operator). However 'dh' and 'gh' are sometimes (between soft vowels) pronounced as an English 'y'. What I really like about Irish is that 'fh' is not pronounced at all, but is always silent.
 
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 11:13
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You said "kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so..."


The link says: 'gh' (in English, not Avestan!) was pronounced as 'ch' in Scottish 'loch' - and that's voiceless velar fricative.
In fact 'gh' in English spelling is usually not pronounced at all ('ought', 'high', 'daughter') or pronounced 'f' ('laugh', 'rough', 'tough'). English English does not have velar fricatives, voiced or voiceless (though Scots and Irish Englishes do).
 
We're suffering here from lack of a standard phonetic system. 
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 11:05
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Cyrus, there is no way how Persian language could have influenced English, because the nearest Persian was 3000km far away!!

What are the distances between England and America or England and Australia?

In my case at the moment the nearest American to me is about 30 feet away. She has had a considerable effect on my vocabulary.
What is the relation between "influence" and "distance"? Do you want that I list numerous Persian words in the Comorian language? Do you know where Comoros Islands are?
 
Everybody else seems to think Comorian is a Swahili variant. But I bet you could find numerous 'Persian words' in every language on earth, since you define a 'Persian word' as 'any combination of phonemes'.
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:37
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You said "kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so..."


The link says: 'gh' (in English, not Avestan!) was pronounced as 'ch' in Scottish 'loch' - and that's voiceless velar fricative.

The source about Avestan says that voiced velar fricative is often transcribed as 'gh'. And as you know, I was talking about the voiced one.

The voiceless velar fricative is transcribed differently in each language! Slavic use 'ch' or 'h', Celtic use 'ch', some use 'kh', Spanish used once 'x' (Mexico) and now uses 'j' and so on. And it's still the same sound.

Do you even know the difference between voiced and voiceless?

Is Dutch a Germanic language or not?
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:15

Anyway, what does English have to do with the topic of the thread?? Let's go back to the topic: 'Is Germanic a subgroup of Iranian?'. Why are you changing the topic so often??

Is English a Germanic language or not? Are those words, that I mentioned, Germanic or not?

The fact is that you can find all Avestan Consonants in the Germanic "own" words, you say some modern Germanic languages lack some sounds, what does it prove? Isn't it obvious that they have lost those sounds?

Arabs and Persian have lived near, with and among one another for hundreds years, there are numerous Persian words in the Arabic language but Arabic lacks some phonetic sounds found in the Persian, such "ch", "p", ... just tell me one Arabic "loan" word from Persian with these sounds, if you find an Arabic "own" word then I will say Arabic is the same Persian! Wink
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Posts: 1064 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 07:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Should I know it?!


No because the answer doesn't exist. They were the ones that created it. Just like there was no bilabial fricative in PIE, but Avestan created it.
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