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King John View Drop Down
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Historical Linguistics
    Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:35
In the English texts that I have seen "eruere" and "privare" are the most prevalent verbs used to express blinding often with a form of "oculus." What is interesting is that in the texts that I have come across "exoculare" is used strictly for a blinding that occurs during Judicial Combat. When discussing both blinding and castration the two verbs that are used are "eruere" and "abscidere" - to cut out.
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Posts: 1900 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:44
I believe (I'll say it again, I am not familiar with English legal texts) the verb might have an object (complement) which should clarify the meaning: e.g. oculum eruere would be synonymous with exoculare.
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:34
So in other words it's still left to my imagination what might be being plucked out here?
 
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Posts: 1900 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:54

Though I do not know how the words were exactly used in English legal documents, in Latin eruo means generically "to pull out, to extract" but also "to break, to destroy" while exoculo means "to pull the eyes out / to blind". Few classical examples for eruo:

Pliny, Naturalis Historia, XXXIII, 4: eruitur aurum = the gold is extracted
Vergilius, Aeneid, II: ut Trojanas opes eruerint Danai = how the Greeks destroyed the Trojan power
 
 
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:33
Eruare has more of a sense of to pluck out or rip out but doesn't necessarily have to be the removal of a body part whereas exoculare is more generically to blind. If that makes sense? Both, in my research, have been used in discussion of blinding. Eruare might also have been used to describe castration, but I highly doubt it.
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:16
But you have a stronger stomach. I only recently had my gallbladder out Big%20smile.
 
Against my better judgement though, how does 'eruare' differ from 'exoculare'? Or do I have to let my imagination roam over what else might be plucked out?
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 18:58
Originally posted by gcle2003

I know what the words mean. That's the trouble.


Why is that a problem? I know what those words mean as well.
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Posts: 3963 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 17:11
The Saxon/Scythian word for "Punish" was "Tucian", in the middle Persian language it was "Tawchian" (Modern Persian "Tawziana") which also means "Scourge", in the modern English and Scottish languages there is the word "Tawse" which means "Whip".
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 12:51
I know what the words mean. That's the trouble.
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King John View Drop Down
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 20:13
why did the list put you off?

The list is of latin words that appear in documents concerning punishment from the reign of William I to Richard I. I am interested in looking at how these words shifted over time in legal documents.

Edited by King John - 26-Jan-2008 at 20:15
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 20:06
Originally posted by King John

...after is one of my interests as is the development/usage of different words for punishment like eruare, exoculare, amputare, and/or castrare.
 
I had been thinking how interesting this sounded, and then you came up with that list. I think you've put me off. Ouch
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 19:31
That's about how I feel about English prior to the Norman Conquest and after it. The development of English in legal documents of before the Conquest and after is one of my interests as is the development/usage of different words for punishment like eruare, exoculare, amputare, and/or castrare.
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Posts: 1804 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 19:02
Originally posted by King John

Yeah, I've read some of his other stuff, but I did like Listening for the Text. I never would have thought that I would be interested in linguistics of any sort but the more languages I learn to read the more interested I get in it.
 
I thought the book was interesting too.  The method of analysis has its place and can be fruitful when done correctly with as little of their specialized jargon as possible! LOL
 
I am very interested in the development of the Greek language from antiquity through Byzantium and the early modern period.  One can see the evolution of the vernacular (demotic) in the documentary records from the Mount Athos monasteries.  At the same time, late Byzantine historians are adopting a highly-refined Attic style like Thucydides, whom they emulated greatly.  It is interesting to see the Greek language grapple with terminology to describe new technology and foreign borrowings.
 
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by King John

I would be using this in conjunction with my historical research. I plan to have historical linguistics as an outside field when I do my PhD.


 

Wow, this is a new development!  It will go well with your interest in English law.  Remember when we read Brian Stock's Listening for the Text?  Although it smacks of postmodernism, some of his other works seem to deal with historical linguistics and methods of interpretation.

 


Yeah, I've read some of his other stuff, but I did like Listening for the Text. I never would have thought that I would be interested in linguistics of any sort but the more languages I learn to read the more interested I get in it.
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Posts: 582 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:43
This is a very awesome topic King John.
 
With something as dynamic as language it would be interesting to learn the effects of various influences and why certain aspects are easily abandoned while others survive. Also, how language can reflect change in a culture and possible inferences we can make from identifying key elements (like a middle-range approach).
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Posts: 1804 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:39
Originally posted by King John

I would be using this in conjunction with my historical research. I plan to have historical linguistics as an outside field when I do my PhD.
 
Wow, this is a new development!  It will go well with your interest in English law.  Remember when we read Brian Stock's Listening for the Text?  Although it smacks of postmodernism, some of his other works seem to deal with historical linguistics and methods of interpretation.
 
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King John View Drop Down
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 17:40
I would be using this in conjunction with my historical research. I plan to have historical linguistics as an outside field when I do my PhD.
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 10:15
That would be interesting, but it's a pretty narrow field. For access to sources you might find http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook-law.html#ENGLISH%20LAW  useful.
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Posts: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 01:50
Originally posted by Flipper

Hi King John!Can you specify what you mean with historical linguistics? Like Hesychius for example who compiled dictionaries?


That would be one aspect of Historical linguistics, that is comparing dictionaries and grammars from certain periods of time to other dictionaries and grammars from another period of time to see how the language has changed. Another aspect of historical linguistics is the study of languages and how they relate using morphological and phonological examples to show similarities and common ancestry.

The way I envision using it for my research is to look at the changes in word usage in legal documents over a few hundred years in England and the North Sea countries (Denmark, Norway, etc.).
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Posts: 7012 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:33
The classic writer with regard to Indo-European languages was always Antoine Meillet, but I read him in French. There are translations of various works available on Amazon though, and presumably in libraries.
 
For a look at an unusual aspect of language development you might like Gasparov's A History of European Versification. It concentrates on the development of verse forms, but they reflect of course the development of the underlying languages.
 
And there is always the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language for general overview and a collection of facts as well as a reasonably objective summary of opinions and theories.


Edited by gcle2003 - 21-Jan-2008 at 14:35
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