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kafkas
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Joined: 27-Feb-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 117 |
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Topic: Contributions Of Islamic Knowledge to The worldPosted: 02-May-2008 at 20:25 |
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His mother was Iranian, but he was still a Turk. He was Tamerlane's grandson and spoke Chaghatay Turkish, his scientific works were written in Arabic and later translated into Persian. He's an Uzbek national hero. Edited by kafkas - 02-May-2008 at 20:32 |
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pekau
Tsar
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3344 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 05:15 |
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I agree with pinguin. Aristotle did indeed believe that the light ray was produced from the eyes that allowed people to see... and many of his ideas went unchallenged for centuries.
Out of many Islamic figures, I respect Avicenna. Not only that he was a brilliant man, he was one of the most sincere and passionate Muslim in spite of critics from other religious leaders.
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gcle2003
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Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Online Status: Offline Posts: 7012 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 09:50 |
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Where do you get that from? Medieval music derives straight from the Greek modes, and where it isn't just unsophisticatedly pentatonic, it's diatonic (eight-note scale). In fact I would think that of all the medieval arts and sciences, music was the least influenced by the Arabs (or any other Asiatic source).
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Omar al Hashim
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Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Location: Snowy-Highlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 5725 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 10:34 |
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Medieval music derives from Greek music? Surely most of it was native.
As for imports such as the guitar/variants, I don't think they can be called Greek at the exclusion of Arab (nor vice versa) |
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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Sparten
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Totalitarian Iconoclast Joined: 18-Mar-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5014 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 10:51 |
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This has got to be the most inane topic ever.
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The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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pinguin
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Joined: 29-Sep-2006 Location: Chile Online Status: Offline Posts: 7508 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 12:35 |
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I dissagree simply because the influences of Arabs in Al-Andalus were very large, and there is some evidence that Arab musical styles spread from there to the rest of Europe. I am not saying that that was the single influence at all. Of course Bizantium also was an important source of culture during the Middle Ages (Venecian and Andalucian buildings had its influence. But there also was Arab influences in arts to the north.
This is an example.
Source "Saudi Aramco World" http://saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200407/flight.of.the.blackbird-.compilation..htm
I quote:
THE FLIGHT OF THE BLACK BIRD
By Robert W. Lebling, Jr. and Norman MacDonald
![]() If you eat asparagus, or if you start your meal with soup and end with dessert, or if you use toothpaste, or if you wear your hair in bangs, you owe a lot to one of the greatest musicians in history. He was known as Ziryab, a colloquial Arabic term that translates as “blackbird.†He lived in medieval Spain more than a thousand years ago. He was a freed slave who made good, charming the royal court at Córdoba with his songs. He founded a music school whose fame survived more than 500 years after his death. Ibn Hayyan of Córdoba, one of Arab Spain’s greatest historians, says in his monumental Al-Muqtabas (The Citation) that Ziryab knew thousands of songs by heart and revolutionized the design of the musical instrument that became the lute. He spread a new musical style around the Mediterranean, influencing troubadours and minstrels and affecting the course of European music. He was also his generation’s arbiter of taste and style and manners, and he exerted enormous influence on medieval European society. How people dressed, what and how they ate, how they groomed themselves, what music they enjoyed—all were influenced by Ziryab. If you’ve never heard of this remarkable artist, it’s not surprising. With the twists and turns of history, his name has dropped from public memory in the western world. But the changes he brought to Europe are very much a part of the reality we know today.
One reason Ziryab is unknown to us is that he spoke Arabic, and was part of the royal court of the Arab empire in Spain. Muslims from Arabia and North Africa ruled part of Spain from AD 711 until 1492. The last remnant of Arab rule in the Iberian Peninsula, the Kingdom of Granada, was conquered by the armies of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella in the same year that Columbus sailed for the New World. The Arabs called their Iberian domain Al-Andalus—a direct reference to the Vandals, who occupied the peninsula in the fifth century and whose legacy was still pervasive when Muslim forces arrived in the eighth—and that name survives today in the name of Spain’s southern province, Andalusia. At its peak, Al-Andalus experienced a golden age of civilization that was the envy of all Europe, and which set the stage for the European Renaissance that followed. Muslims, Christians and Jews interacted in a convivencia—a “living-togetherâ€â€”of tolerance and cooperation unparalleled in its time. Influences from Arab Spain spread to France and throughout Europe, and from there to the Americas. It was in this context that the achievements of Ziryab became part of western culture.
Ziryab’s achievements were not forgotten in the Arab world, and it is from historians there that we know of his life and accomplishments. As the 17th-century Arab historian al-Maqqari says in his Nafh al-Tib (Fragrant Breeze), “There never was, either before or after him, a man of his profession who was more generally beloved and admired.â€
Blackbird studied music under the famous singer and royal court musician Ishaq al-Mawsili (“Isaac of Mosulâ€). Ishaq, his even more celebrated father, Ibrahim, and Ziryab are the three artists known as the fathers of Arabic music. Baghdad was then a world center for culture, art and science. Its most famous ruler was Harun al-Rashid, who succeeded al-Mahdi. Harun was a lover of music, and brought many singers and musicians to the palace for the entertainment of his guests. Ishaq, as Harun’s chief musician, trained a number of students in the musical arts, among them Blackbird. Ziryab was intelligent and had a good ear; outside his lessons, he surreptitiously learned the songs of his master, which were said to have been complex and difficult even for an expert. Ishaq did not realize how much Ziryab had learned until Harun himself asked to hear the young musician. In Ibn Hayyan’s account (as related by al-Maqqari), Ishaq told the caliph, “Yes, I’ve heard some nice things from Ziryab, some clear and emotional melodies—particularly some of my own rather unusual renditions. I taught him those songs because I considered them especially suited to his skill.†Ziryab was summoned, and he sang for Harun al-Rashid. Afterward, when the caliph spoke to him, Ziryab answered “gracefully, with real charm of manner.†Harun asked him about his skill, and Blackbird replied, “I can sing what the other singers know, but most of my repertory is made up of songs suitable only to be performed before a caliph like Your Majesty. The other singers don’t know those numbers. If Your Majesty permits, I’ll sing for you what human ears have never heard before.†Harun raised his eyebrows, and ordered that master Ishaq’s lute be handed to Ziryab. The Arabian lute or ‘ud, model of the European lute and relative of the guitar, was an instrument with four courses of strings, a body shaped like half a pear and a bent, fretless neck.
Ziryab respectfully declined the instrument. “I’ve brought my own lute,†he said, “which I made myself —stripping the wood and working it —and no other instrument satisfies me. I left it at the palace gate and, with your permission, I’ll send for it.†Harun sent for the lute. He examined it. It looked like Ishaq al-Mawsuli’s. “Why won’t you play your master’s lute?†the caliph asked. “If the caliph wants me to sing in my master’s style, I’ll use his lute. But to sing in my own style, I need this instrument.†“They look alike to me,†Harun said. “At first glance, yes,†said Ziryab, “but even though the wood and the size are the same, the weight is not. My lute weighs about a third less than Ishaq’s, and my strings are made of silk that has not been spun with hot water—which weakens them. The bass and third strings are made of lion gut, which is softer and more sonorous than that of any other animal. These strings are stronger than any others, and they can better withstand the striking of the pick.†Ziryab’s pick was a sharpened eagle’s claw, rather than the usual piece of carved wood. He had also, significantly, added a fifth course of strings to the instrument. Harun was satisfied. He ordered Ziryab to perform, and the young man began a song he had composed himself. The caliph was quite impressed. He turned to al-Mawsuli and said, “If I thought you had been hiding this man’s extraordinary ability, I’d punish you for not telling me about him. Continue his instruction until it’s completed. For my part, I want to contribute to his development.†Ziryab had apparently concealed his finest talents from his own teacher. When Ishaq was finally alone with his pupil, he raged about being deceived. He said frankly that he was jealous of Ziryab’s skill, and feared the pupil would soon replace the master in the caliph’s favor. “I could pardon this in no man, not even my own son,†Ishaq said. “If I weren’t still somewhat fond of you, I wouldn’t hesitate to kill you, regardless of the consequences. Here is your choice: Leave Baghdad, take up residence far from here, and swear that I’ll never hear from you again. If you do this, I’ll give you enough money to meet your needs. But if you choose to stay and spite me—I warn you, I’ll risk my life and all I possess to crush you. Make your choice!†Ziryab did not hesitate; he took the money and left the Abbasid capital. Ishaq explained his protégé’s absence by claiming that Ziryab was mentally unbalanced and had left Baghdad in a rage at not receiving a gift from the caliph. “The young man is possessed,†Ishaq told Harun al-Rashid. “He’s subject to fits of frenzy that are horrible to witness. He believes the jinn speak with him and inspire his music. He’s so vain he believes his talent is unequaled in the world. I don’t know where he is now. Be thankful, Your Majesty, that he’s gone.â€
As Reinhart Dozy notes in Histoire des Musulmans d’Espagne, “None knew better than Ishaq that there was no insanity in all this: What true artist, indeed, whether believing in jinn or not, has not known moments when he has been under the sway of emotions hard to define, and savoring of the supernatural?†Ziryab and his family fled from Baghdad to Egypt and crossed North Africa to Kairouan in present-day Tunisia, seat of the Aghlabid dynasty of Ziyadat Allah I. There he was welcomed by the royal court. But he had no intention of staying in Kairouan; his eyes were on Spain. Under the Umayyads, Córdoba was fast becoming a cultural jewel to rival Baghdad, and Blackbird thought Córdoba might be a fit setting for his talents. Ziryab wrote to al-Hakam, ruler of the emirate of Al-Andalus, and offered his musical skills. Al-Hakam, delighted with the prospect of adding a Baghdad musician to his court, wrote back inviting Ziryab to proceed to Córdoba. He offered the musician a handsome salary. Ziryab and his family packed their bags and headed overland to the Strait of Gibraltar. There they embarked on a ship bound for Algeciras, Spain. When Ziryab arrived in Spain in the year 822, he was shocked to learn that al-Hakam was dead. Devastated, the young musician prepared to return to North Africa. But thanks to the glowing recommendation of Abu al-Nasr Mansur, a Jewish musician of the Córdoban royal court, al-Hakam’s son and successor ‘Abd al-Rahman II renewed the invitation to Ziryab.
After meeting with the 33-year-old wonder from Baghdad, ‘Abd al-Rahman —who was about the same age—made him an attractive offer. Ziryab would receive a handsome salary of 200 gold pieces per month, with bonuses of 500 gold pieces at midsummer and the new year and 1000 on each of the two major Islamic holidays. He would be given 200 bushels of barley and 100 bushels of wheat each year. He would receive a modest palace in Córdoba and several villas with productive farmland in the countryside. Naturally, Ziryab accepted the offer; overnight he became a prosperous member of the landed upper class in Islamic Spain.
In fact, ‘Abd al-Rahman offered Ziryab employment before even asking him to perform. And when he eventually did hear Ziryab’s songs, contemporaries say the ruler was so captivated that he would never again listen to another singer. From that day forward, ‘Abd al-Rahman and Ziryab were close confidants, and would often meet to discuss poetry, history and all the arts and sciences. Ziryab served as a kind of “minister of culture†for the Andalusi realm. One of his first projects was to found a school of music, which opened its doors not only to the talented sons and daughters of the higher classes but also to lower-class court entertainers. Unlike the more rigid conservatories of Baghdad, Ziryab’s school encouraged experimentation in musical styles and instruments. While the academy taught the world-famous styles and songs of the Baghdad court, Ziryab quickly began introducing his innovations and established his reputation as, in the words of the Encyclopaedia of Islam, “the founder of the musical traditions of Muslim Spain.†He created the rules governing the performance of the nuba (or nauba), an important Andalusian Arab music form that survives today in the classical music of North Africa, known as maluf in Libya, Tunisia and eastern Algeria, and simply as andalusi music farther west. Ziryab created 24 nubas, one for each hour of the day, like the classical ragas of India. The nuba form became very popular in the Spanish Christian community and had a pronounced influence on the development of medieval European music. Adding a fifth pair of strings to the lute gave the instrument greater delicacy of expression and a greater range. As music historian Julian Ribera wrote in the 1920’s, the medieval lute’s four courses of strings were widely believed to correspond to the four humors of the body. The first pair was yellow, symbolizing bile, the second was red for blood, the third white for phlegm, and the fourth, the bass pair, was black for melancholy. Ziryab, it was said, gave the lute a soul, adding another red pair of strings between the second and third courses. Ziryab heightened the lute’s sensitivity by playing the instrument with a flexible eagle’s talon or quill, rather than the traditional wooden pick. This innovation spread quickly, and soon no skilled musician in Córdoba would consider touching wood to the strings of his lute. Ziryab reputedly knew the words and melodies of 10,000 songs by heart. Though this claim may be exaggerated, his memory was certainly prodigious. He was also an excellent poet, a student of astronomy and geography, and a dazzling conversationalist, according to Ibn Hayyan and al-Maqqari. He often discussed the customs and manners of nations throughout the known world, and spoke extensively of the high civilization centered in Baghdad. As his popularity in Al-Andalus grew, so did his influence. His suggestions and recommendations became the popular fashion. Many of his new ideas gradually migrated into the land of the Franks—to France, Germany, northern Italy and beyond.
Before Ziryab, Spanish dining was a simple, even crude, affair, inherited from the Visigoths, the successors of the Vandals, and from local custom. Platters of different foods were piled together, all at the same time, on bare wooden tables. Table manners were nonexistent. A wide array of foods was available in Al-Andalus—meats, fish and fowl, vegetables, cheeses, soups and sweets. Ziryab combined them in imaginative recipes, many originating in Baghdad. One of these dishes, consisting of meatballs and small triangular pieces of dough fried in coriander oil, came to be known as taqliyat Ziryab, or Ziryab’s fried dish; many others bore his name as well. He delighted court diners by elevating a humble spring weed called asparagus to the status of a dinner vegetable. Ziryab developed a number of delectable desserts, including an unforgettable treat of walnuts and honey that is served to this day in the city of Zaragoza. In his adopted home, Córdoba, the musician-gourmet is remembered today in an old dish of roasted and salted broad beans called ziriabÃ. The staying power of Blackbird’s reputation is such that even today in Algeria, where Andalusi influence continues to echo, the sweet orange Arab pastry known as zalabia—here it takes the form of a spiral of fried batter soaked in saffron syrup—is believed by many Algerians to derive its name from Ziryab’s, a claim impossible to confirm or refute. An Indian version of zalabia, the jalebi, can be traced back to the 15th century within India but no earlier, and could be a borrowing from the Arabs and ultimately from Ziryab. With the emir’s blessing, Ziryab decreed that palace dinners would be served in courses—that is, according to a fixed sequence, starting with soups or broths, continuing with fish, fowl or meats, and concluding with fruits, sweet desserts and bowls of pistachios and other nuts. This presentation style, unheard of even in Baghdad or Damascus, steadily gained in popularity, spreading through the upper and merchant classes, then among Christians and Jews, and even to the peasantry. Eventually the custom became the rule throughout Europe. The English expression “from soup to nuts,†indicating a lavish, multi-course meal, can be traced back to Ziryab’s innovations at the Andalusi table. Dressing up the plain wooden dinner table, Ziryab taught local craftsmen how to produce tooled and fitted leather table coverings. He replaced the heavy gold and silver drinking goblets of the upper classes—a holdover from the Goths and Romans—with delicate, finely crafted crystal. He redesigned the bulky wooden soupspoon, substituting a trimmer, lighter-weight model. Ziryab also turned his attention to personal grooming and fashion. He developed Europe’s first toothpaste (though what exactly its ingredients were, we cannot say). He popularized shaving among men and set new haircut trends. Before Ziryab, royalty and nobles washed their clothes with rose water; to improve the cleaning process, he introduced the use of salt. For women, Blackbird opened a “beauty parlor/cosmetology school†not far from the Alcazar, the emir’s palace. He created hairstyles that were daring for the time. The women of Spain traditionally wore their hair parted in the middle, covering their ears, with a long braid down the back. Ziryab introduced a shorter, shaped cut, with bangs on the forehead and the ears uncovered. He taught the shaping of eyebrows and the use of depilatories for removing body hair. He introduced new perfumes and cosmetics. Some of Ziryab’s fashion tips he borrowed from the elite social circles of Baghdad, then the world’s most cosmopolitan city. Others were twists on local Andalusi custom. Most became widespread simply because Ziryab advocated them: He was a celebrity, and people gained status simply by emulating him. As an arbiter of courtly dress, he decreed Spain’s first seasonal fashion calendar. In springtime, men and women were to wear bright colors in their cotton and linen tunics, shirts, blouses and gowns. Ziryab introduced colorful silk clothing to supplement traditional fabrics. In summer, white clothing was the rule. When the weather turned cold, Ziryab recommended long cloaks trimmed with fur, which became all the rage in Al-Andalus. Ziryab exercised great clout at the emir’s court, even in political and administrative decision-making. ‘Abd al-Rahman II has been credited with organizing the “norms of the state†in Al-Andalus, transforming it from a Roman-Visigothic model to one set up along Abbasid lines, and Ziryab is said to have played a significant role in this process. Ziryab brought in astrologers from India and Jewish doctors from North Africa and Iraq. The astrologers were grounded in astronomy, and Ziryab encouraged the spread of this knowledge. The Indians also knew how to play chess, and Ziryab had them teach the game to members of the royal court, and from there it spread throughout the peninsula.
But ‘Abd al-Rahman II died in about 852, and his remarkable innovator Ziryab is believed to have followed about five years later. Ziryab’s children kept alive his musical inventions, assuring their spread throughout Europe. Each of his eight sons and two daughters eventually pursued a musical career, though not all became celebrities. The most popular singer was Ziryab’s son ‘Ubayd Allah, though his brother Qasim was said to have a better voice. Next in talent was ‘Abd al-Rahman, the first of the children to take over the music school after their father’s death—though arrogance was said to be his downfall, for he ended up alienating everyone, according to Ibn Hayyan. Ziryab’s daughters were skilled musicians. The better artist was Hamduna, whose fame translated into marriage with the vizier of the realm. The better teacher was her sister ‘Ulaiya, the last surviving of Ziryab’s children, who went on to inherit most of her father’s musical clients. As ‘Abd al-Rahman II and Ziryab departed the stage, Córdoba was coming into its own as a cultural capital and seat of learning. By the time another ‘Abd al-Rahman—the third —took power in 912, the city had become the intellectual center of Europe. As historian James Cleugh said of Córdoba in Spain in the Modern World, “there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger.†As the first millennium drew to a close, students from France, England and the rest of Europe flocked to Córdoba to study science, medicine and philosophy and to take advantage of the great municipal library with its 600,000 volumes. When they returned to their home countries, they took with them not only knowledge, but also art, music, cuisine, fashion and manners. Europe found itself awash with new ideas and new customs, and among the many streams that flowed northward from the Iberian Peninsula, more than one had been channeled by Ziryab.
This article appeared on pages 2-11 of the Al-Andalus print edition of Saudi Aramco World. |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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gcle2003
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Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Online Status: Offline Posts: 7012 |
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 13:05 |
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That's why I mentioned 'unsophisticatedly pentatonic'. Yes there was a lot of 'native' music around. But the diatonic stuff - singing mostly, given the Church's attitude to instrumental music - comes straight from the Greek modes.
Some antique Greek:
![]() Some late antiquity:
![]() Some later middle ages: ![]() (Sorry about the crooked scanning. All scanned from dtv-Atlas zur Musik)
I'd distinguish between the instrument and the music played on it. Modern Indian musicians use the clarinet quite a lot, but what they play on it isn't Western music. On a standard guitar it may be theoretically possible to play quarter-tone music, but it's pushing the envelope. A guitar may look like a sitar, but the music played on them is wildly different.
'Guitar' derives from Greek 'kithara' and is a fixed pitch instrument, which means it is entirely unsuitable to Arab music. The 'guitarra moresca' is somewhat different, and anyhow I'm not denying there was Arab music in Iberia. In fact the instrument that probably came from the Arabs, and possibly points east, was the violin (at least, the violin family - strings with no frets, rubbed by a bow), but in Europe it was 'tamed' into playing music that derives from Greek sources (or local 'native' ones).
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 13:23 |
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Pinguin, I don't see anything in all that post that says anything at all about the kind of music he played or how it influenced European music. Arabic and European music - especially medieval and classical European music - are about as incompatible as two kinds of music can be.
Come back when you have some musical evidence, rather than semi-mythological popularisations. Moreover, medieval European lutes are fixed-pitch (fixed fretted, unlike, say, the sitar), diatonic instruments, unsuitable for Arab music. Generally speaking historically the influence has gone the other way, as Arab music has been constricted by being played on Western instruments.
The picture of a lute you show significantly has no frets, which means you can play Arab music on it. The fixed frets on European lutes however, like those on guitars show how widely different the music that was played on them was to that played on Arab instruments.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 13:24 |
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Just a question, Gle2003.
Music is my weakness, so I don't know much about it. It calls my attention, though, that you mention hymns from antique and late antique times. How were they recorded? As far as I know there wasn't musical writing in classical times but up to the renacense, when Guido D'Arezzon invented it. I don't understand how was recorded, then. Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2008 at 13:25 |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 13:33 |
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Really? I am not a musician so I can't give here a good fight
Arabs and Europeans knew each other and interchange culture and knowledge during a thousand year in Spain and also in the Middle East. And Arabs had a higher culture... I tell you
It may be so, but when I hear Flamenco and other ancient styles of Spanish Music I can't help but the similarity of patterns with Moroccian and Arabian musical styles. With respect to lutes, they look similar to some multi-cords guitars played in folk music in several countries in Latin America. I can't help but see the link.
He made some change to the lute, that with my poor understanding of music I can't grasp
From Wikki:
"Louie Provencal, the renowned historian of Spanish civilization says about Ziryab, "he was a genius and his influence in Spanish society of the time not only encompassed music but also all aspects of Society.†Titus Burckhardt, the German historian of Islam writes, “he was a genius musical scholar and at the same time the one who brought Persian music to Spain and consequently to all of the western world. He was able to replace the primitive ways of Arabs of that time with Persian elegance.†Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2008 at 13:53 |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 13:51 |
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The Greeks had musical notation, though not the same as ours of course, from somewhere around 500-odd BC, based on using the letters of the alphabet to represent notes.
http://classics.uc.edu/music/index.html for instance.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 14:34 |
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Well, they're both kinds of music so they have something in common. However, melodically Western music historically was based on an seven-note octave scale (called an 'octave' because the seven plus the first repeated at double the frequency of the first makes eight). Only in relatively modern times has a 12-note scale been in use.
Arab music however is based from the beginning on a 24-note scale, which distinguishes it from all other world music AFAIK. That's why you can't play it on a piano or a fretted lute or guitar (though you can get closer by 'bluing' the note - pulling the string sideways) or keyed and valved Western wind instruments.
European music is also much concerned with harmony - and has been ever since Pythagoras -and Arab music pretty well ignores harmony.
You might find this concert review interesting:
I'll give you Iberian music has Arab influences, but at that time I count Iberia as part of the Arab world. But Iberian music has had little effect on the rest of Europe until relatively modern times.
You have to be careful to distinguish between the 'lute' and the 'oud' (or 'oudh') which is the Arab version of the instrument, and is fretless.
Just check the frets to tell the difference.
I'm not knocking Ziryab's contribution to Arab or Persian music (I don't know anything about the latter) just pointing out that neither Arab nor Persian made any significant contribution to European music.
As I understand it, both the European lute and the Middle Eastern oud had originally eight strings in four pairs (like a mandolin). Someone - and Ziryab may well have been the first - thought of adding a fifth pair (like the fifth string got added to the original banjo). In Europe anyway at some point someone else added a sixth pair, so the medieval lute ends up with 12 strings in all.
Edited by gcle2003 - 03-May-2008 at 14:35 |
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 14:52 |
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Although I may agree with the rest of your argument, this part really shocked me.
Iberian music didn't influenced European?
I can hardly believe those hundred of thousand European schollars that went to study to Toledo and other multicultural cities of Middle Ages Spain never heared music there and weren't influenced.
On the other hand, although heavily influenced by the Arab world and ruled by muslims, Spain never stopped to be mainly Roman. People spoke romance languages, and they recieved not only Arab influences but from France, Italy and Germany as well.
In short, Andalucia was one of the two or three places were West met East, and influenced both. And music is one of the influences that travel faster (just see Chinese people dancing reaggeton or playing rock)
Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2008 at 14:54 |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 17:51 |
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Not in the middle ages. Moreover it hasn't really influenced European music, even though non-Iberian Europeans have learned to some extent to appreciate it. Latin American music in the last 100 or so years has had more influence, but that's more African than Latin.
We have plenty of records of music from the middle ages and the Renaissance. I'm not aware of any of it that shows any influence from Arab music, or even any similarity to Arab music. On the other hand the development from Greek music is traceable throughout. (Even local musical traditions, which were pretty primitive still, are eventually brought within the Greek tradition. )
By and large you appreciate most the music you grow up listening to. Quarter-tones sound awful to the average European ear, just as diminished chords and even minor ones offend Eastern ears. You sing the songs of the musical tradition you belong to, and without training you rarely learn to appreciate other styles, unless they are somehow hybridised - like for instance West Indian steel bands. But there is no hybrid Arab-European music because the two are too dissimilar - much more dissimilar than European and Chinese since Chinese music kind of stuck at an early developmental stage and didn't go on to different kinds of complexity and sophistication like the European, Arab and Indian traditions did.
Similarly African music stuck at an early developmental stage, which means that it (and Chinese) music are actually more assimilable to other ears than European, Arab and Indian are to each other. (I'm talking here about the three classical traditions, not modern variants.)
Nowadays yes: after all we have records, CDs, MP3 players, peer-to-peer downloading systems... all influencing what we hear at an early age.
Music is not like literature or architecture or painting: our reaction to it is much more conservative and dependent on upbringing. Even so however, neither in literature nor architecture nor painting did Arab traditions influence European ones to the extent that Arab physicians, scientists and mathematicians did.
PS On checking around I'll grant that the European lute was a development from the Middle Easterh oud. However the point remains that in order to play European music on it it helped to be fretted, while to play Arab music it had to be unfretted. Like I said, it's the music we're really concerned with here, not the instrument. Edited by gcle2003 - 03-May-2008 at 18:11 |
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 18:17 |
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I can't believe that comment. So, for you Latin American music is Salsa and Guarachas at the sound of a voodoo dance?
Well, perhaps you should research more. Listen to Ladino (Jewish Spanish) music of the Middle Ages, for example. I stop it in here, because I am afraid you don't know about historical Iberian music, so we have not a common ground to discuss the topic.
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 20:05 |
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I should have put 'Latin American' in quotes. Or said ' the music commonly referred to as 'Latin American'. I also said 'more African than Latin' not 'exclusively African'. The paso doble for instance is undoubtedly Spanish (but unrelated to Arab music). So is the tango. But rhumba, samba, bossa nova, mambo, conga are all more African than Spanish, not just because of the rhythmic structures, but also because of the 'blued' sevenths. I agree though they are hybrids.
When you can find me one piece of music written in the Middle Ages or Renaissance Europe north of the Pyrenees that has any sign of Arab influence to it I might pay attention to your case.
The only Ladino (Sephardic) music I've come across is an artificial modern mélange of various influences, including Indian. It's hardly surprising - and hardly relevant to this thread - that Sephardic music should have been influenced by Arab music. If there is any historic, early medieval Ladino music I'd love to see it, but I don't see how Jewish music can be considered either Arab or European.
Ashkenazi - Yiddish - music similarly follows very closely German/Russian styles and uses a lot of minor scales. But the very fact that it uses minor scales indicates that it is influenced by European (originally Greek) sources, not Arab ones.
PS I've just gone through the substantial Guide de La Musique du Moyen Age edited by Françoise Ferrand heading a group of academics from France, the UK, and the US, and find no reference at all to any influence of Arab music on the subject. However there is a considerable section on the spread southward of musical styles, primarily from France, partly from Germany, into Spain as the country was regained from the Moors.
Partly this was because the courts of the new Christian magnates liked to emulate the French courts. More significant probably was the influence of the Church, with its concern over what and how music was sung/played.
Apparently by the mid-15th century the court of Aragon especially was developing a more independent role, and the choir of Alphonse V (which included two organists) was only surpassed in size by that of Henry VI of England (36 adults and ten children).
Note the organists. The keyboarded organ is essentially unique to European music. I don't recall choral singing of this order being present in Arab music either.
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 23:07 |
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The origin of Tango as an African rythm is highly unlikely, particularly when one hear Milonga and other folk dances associated with compadritos (mestizos) rather than with Black people. In fact, nobody dances Tango in south saharan Africa
![]() With respect to Rumba, Salsa, Conga and other Cuban-Puerto Rican-Dominican rythms, indeed they have an African rythmic bass. However, even in Cuban music when you hear other instruments rather than drums, like guitar or flutes, for instance, the origin is not African but European. So, the Africanization of Latin American music, that outsiders like to strenght affects mainly to the Caribbean. And even in there, the Afro capital of Hispanic music, you will find Indian intruments being played like the Guiro and the Maracas. In South America many rythms and tunes have an Amerindian origin rather than African. Even more, many folk dances like Mexican, are rooted in German Polka!
Back to the point, the music of Spain is obviously based in two factors: the song and the Spanish guitar. Now, the song is obviously influenced by the muslim call to pray, and by many Arab singuing styles. With respect to the guitar, that is dominant in all the folk music in Latin America, including in places like Cuba or Brazil, is undeniable Arab in origin.
With respect to the music of Northern Europe to be unpoluted by Arab styles I doubt.
Classical music started from the South to the North. From Italy and France came the Opera singers and trovateurs. Vivaldi and early classical musicians were Italians.
And Italy, was heavily influenced by the Arabs as well.
So, if the link between Arab and European music has not been found, it is time to make the homework
Yes. You will be amazed about the richness of Spain's classical music. Never heared of the barroque style developed in the Americas, for example?
Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2008 at 23:11 |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 23:27 |
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And talking of Vivaldi, please listen to the famous Seasons and identify some influences from Arab music.
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pinguin
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 23:50 |
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As I said, I am not an expert on the topic. However, others have written about it, so i quote them. First, influences existed. http://www.islamawareness.net/Europe/Italy/rennaissance.html The Arab Influence on the Italian RenaissanceJeff Matthewshttp://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/naples/blog27.htm#arabinf
Speaking of high school, I did not do well in mathematics, but I am willing to give Al-Khwarizmi (known to us as Algorizm!) (770 - 840) his credit if he takes a bit of my blame. I will take all the blame for not knowing who Chaucer was talking about in the Canterbury Tales, when, in praising the knowledge of the doctor on the trip, he reminded us that ye olde pilgrim sawbones was familiar not only with Hippocrates and Galen, but "Rhazes, Hali, Averroës and Avicenna." It is convenient—but not a good idea—to pigeonhole our own cultural history into tidy episodes: The Renaissance, The Age of Reason, The Enlightenment, The This & That, as if they had happened all of a sudden with no connection to anything else—as if Leonardo woke up one fine morning in 1500, looked at his homemade (obviously) hour-glass and said "Gee, it's the Renaissance; I'd better design a helicopter." The point of this entry, then, is simply to draw your attention to how interconnected European and Arabic culture used to be, and how there is a link between the glorious age of Arab science and culture (800-1100) and the beginnings of the Italian Renaissance. (I am not making the post hoc, ergo propter hoc mistake of saying that that which comes first necessarily causes that which comes second. I am simply saying it's a good idea to know what came before you—Bonum est quod ante te evenit scire (I think) . After Islam's rapid spread from Spain to India, Muslims founded the city of Baghdad in 800, and it is here that the Muslim quest for knowledge begins, the manifestation of an insatiable curiosity (to use Einstein's choice phrase from many centuries later) "to figure out how the Old Man runs the universe." It is in Baghdad that the Muslims founded their great school of translation, the incredible ambition of which was to translate as much as they could find of science, astronomy, mathematics, music, geography and philosophy—whatever remained of Classical Greek knowledge. It meant going even further afield—to India—to study the mathematics and philosophy of those who had written in classical Sanskrit centuries earlier. In 800 this was by no means an easy task. Much classical Greek writing had not survived the centuries of neglect by Christians inimical to "pagan" thought. As early as the year 500, the great library at Alexandria was a ruin and, a few years later, Justinian closed Plato's Academy in Athens because it was a hotbed of pagan (non-Christian) philosophy. Arab scholars, then, translated into Arabic the few Greek texts that remained, or translated from languages into which the Greek originals had previously been translated by scholars who had left Greece for parts east. These were mainly exiled Nestorian Christians from Greece, and Classical Greek scholars from Plato's academy who had fled to Persia, where they founded a great center of learning at Jundishapur (before the coming of Islam) and translated much of their material into Aramaic, the lingua franca of the Middle East at the time. After Baghdad, the Arabs later started equally fine centers of scholarship in Spain at Cordoba and Toledo. Transmission of this glorious knowledge from The Muslim world into Italy happened primarily through Spain and Sicily; that is, the great courts of learning in Cordoba and the pre-Crusades court of Norman Sicily in the 12th century. It is in Sicily, particularly, that Norman tolerance provided for the coexistence of Byzantine Greek, Italian Christian, and Arab scholars. It was, perhaps, the last great period of human tolerance in European history. Medicine One of the great medical translators from Arabic into Latin was Constantine of Carthage (known as "The African"). In the middle of the 11th century, he came to teach at the medical school in Salerno , the first of its kind in Europe, bringing with him his vast library of Arabic medical works, including, no doubt, Avicenna's Canon of Medicine. That work was translated into Latin and used as a text in European medical schools well into the 17th century, and parts of it were current as late as the early 19th century! In 1127, a European translator, Stefano of Pisa, reported that scholars of medicine were all still found in Sicily and Salerno, and were generally persons who knew Arabic. Again, we shouldn't set up a necessary chain of cause and effect; yet, there is surely a link between earlier Muslim medical thought (the view that "God has provided a cure for all disease"; therefore, it is our rational duty to find those cures) and the final abandoning by the Christian west of the view that prayer and mortification of the flesh cured illness. Frederick II In Palermo, Emperor Frederick II (1194-1250), in spite of the Crusades, was driven by his own enormous intellectual curiosity to explore Arabic culture. He is known for his exchanges of letters on philosophy and science with Arab scholars. A prominent member of the court of Frederick in Palermo was the great Italian mathematician, Leonardo Fibonacci, the inventor of the arithmetic series that bears his name. (Quick! what is the next number in this series: 4, 1, 5, 6, 11, 17...)? He had studied with Arab mathematicians, and he is also the reason you don't have to do that last problem as "IV, I, V, VI, XI, XVII..."; that is, he introduced "Arabic" numerals into Europe (they were really Indian numerals that the Arabs had picked up in their wanderings). Frederick’s court is also responsible for giving us a Latin translation (from the Arabic translation of the Greek) of Ptolemy's Almagest, and for translating the original works of the great Arab astronomer, Al-Farghini. Frederick II's interests are so wide ranging that it is no wonder he was well read in Arab philosophy and science. He expanded the medical school in Salerno and started the University of Naples, which, today, still bears his name. Michael Scot (1217-1240) was perhaps the finest mind at the court of Frederick in Palermo. From Scotland, he had worked at the great Arab translation center in Toledo and is responsible for giving us Latin versions of the philosophical works of Avicenna and Averroës, particularly the latter's commentaries on Aristotle. From royal courts to fledgeling universities, Italy in the 1100s and 1200s, then, seems to be a scene of Europeans scurrying to read the next installments of Arab works, particularly in philosophy, medicine and astronomy. Philosophy Muslim religious philosophy is of particular interest. Al-Kindi (d. after 870) was the first important Muslim philosopher. He held and taught that revealed truth (religion) and rational truth were not in conflict, but were complementary—even identical. Then, Al-Farabi (874-950) elevated philosophy even above the revealed truth of the sharia, the religious law of Islam, and held that our goal is to develop our rational faculty. Ibn Sina (981-1037), known in the west by the Latin name, Avicenna, is often called by Westerners the "Arab Leonardo" for the amazing breadth of his knowledge in medicine, philosophy, mathematics, and astronomy. In addition to his Canon of Medicine (mentioned above), he is certainly one of the most remarkable thinkers of the Middle Ages and the most important and original of all Muslim phosphors. His held that religion was a kind of philosophy for the masses; the goal of all revealed truth (including his own Islam) was to lead us to our highest state—one of philosophic contemplation. He held the particularly original idea that intellectual discovery implies an intuitive act of knowledge. The idea of the intuitive intellect working outside of the methodical process of collecting facts and deduction has again become quite modern. Perhaps Ibn-Rushid (Averroës) 1128 -1198 is also of great interest to us. He wrote many commentaries on Aristotle and is known in Arab philosophy simply as "The Commentator." His works in religious philosophy were widely read in Europe, especially by Thomas Aquinas, the point, of course, being not that one was right and the other wrong, but that one of the greatest of European medieval philosophers honed his own sharp intellect by dealing with his Muslim predecessor. Averroës' work in law, medicine, and astronomy were also highly regarded. Literature Hardly mentioned at all when you read about the Arab influence in European thought is the extent to which Arab literature might have had any influence on European medieval literature. There are a number of possibilities. It may be that the Arab habit of composing popular poetry in vernacular Arabic in Sicily and Spain had some influence on the subsequent "vernacularization" of not only European court poetry and song in the Provence (the Troubadours) and Sicily, but even in the beginnings of great European vernacular literature. In A History of Islamic Sicily, Aziz Ahmad dwells on the controversial connection between Dante's Divine Comedy and prior Islamic works of the same nature. There is no real conclusion to be drawn, except the possibility that our great originator of non-Latin Romance literature got some inspiration from somewhere. Dante certainly knew of Avicenna and Averroës through Latin translation; in the Divine Comedy, he places them both in Purgatory with the great pre-Christian scholars of ancient Greece. (Dante was not so kind to Mohammed, himself, though, who, in Canto 28, is in Hell as a Sower of Discord). Did Dante also know (through its Latin or Early French translations) of The Book of the Scale, an earlier Arab eschatological work that has interesting parallels in the Divine Comedy? Again, we should beware of post hoc reasoning,but it is an intriguing possibility. It was the contributions of minds such as those mentioned, above, that prompted Robert Briffault (in The Making of Humanity) to write:
Those are strong words that I do not entirely accept. Yet they remind us that our ethnocentric view of our own cultural history as a straightforward chain of events is not very helpful. Perhaps we should step back and view all of culture as a vast web of ideas; they may spring forth in different places at different times—or many of them at the same time, unnoticed elsewhere. Here, read these. They will be on the midterm exam. Ahmad, Aziz. A History of Islamic Sicily. New York: Columbia Univ. Press, 1979. Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2008 at 23:52 |
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 23:55 |
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And ... what about music? |
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