Contributions Of Islamic Knowledge to The world

No-one denies there was Arabic music in Spain under the Arabs, or that Andalusia was a chief centre of it. I also already conceded that Sephardic music (like much Sephardic culture) was influenced by the Arabs. Flamenco and fado contain Arabic elements, like microtonality in the melodic line, but are purely local to Spain/Portugal: they had no influence on the development of European music elsewhere (or even the development of court and church music in Spain).

Interesting thoughts - does the tar syllable also mean 'string' in Sanskrit or Hindi, hence 'sitar'?

I have to say Gcle, that your posts in this thread regarding the origin of guitar have been enlightening. Until now I also was under the impression that guitar came from Persia. I think that the 'tar' part of the term guitar is a pitfall for a Persian speaker regarding this issue of the origin of guitar, because tar means (any kind of) string in Persian (as Cyrus has already written) and guitar happens to be a stringed instrument, making it easy for a Persian speaker to assume it must be Persian. On top of that, there are the examples of all those instruments with numbers in front of 'tar' such as 'Si (30)-tar', 'do(2)-tar' , 'Se(3)-tar' , 'chahar(4)-tar', or just the plain old tar. Even as a child without any linguistic or historical knowledge, I used to wonder about the 'tar' part of guitar and assume that it must have been Persian.

But I have to say, after reading your posts, it seems the origin of guitar is much deeper and more interesting. It was refreshing to know about the Greek, Anatolian and African history of guitar too. Thank you.




Edited by omshanti - 07-May-2008 at 21:21

You're getting close, Cyrus, but there are a couple of points, not the least of which being that you're talking about Persia, and I said some while ago I thought Persian music probably picked up from or contributed to Indian music.

Edited by gcle2003 - 07-May-2008 at 15:42

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by gcle2003 [  They would be unlikely to have done the latter, since the stringed instruments in use in the middle east right through to the modern era were fretless, unlike the stringed instruments (other than harps and lyres) of Greece (and India for that matter).     This instrument, typically used in solo performances, is known as the buzuk. It is comprised of a long-neck and is fretted. It typically has two courses of metallic strings. It has a bright quality of sound due to the metal strings. Like other arab instruments there have been strings added throughout the years. It offers many of the microtonal sounds not heard in typical American music. It has a body carved from a single piece of wood, much like the original `ud. The urbanized form has been modified and is built from seperate ribs. The Music and Musical Instruments of the Arab. Wlliam Reeves, 83 Charing Cross Road, W.C.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri There are certainly some differences between them, even between Dutar (2-sting), Sitar (3-string), Chahartar (4-string) and other Persian stringed instruments but we are talking about the origin of them, especially Guitar. They don't have a single common origin. All sorts of wooden stringed instruments have appeared independently all over the world. It's like asking what the original human language was. [QUOTE] What does Kithara mean in Greek? Did Greeks invent it in 490 BC or import a musical instrument with the same name which was used for several hundreds years before this date in Mesopotamia and Persia?

There are certainly some differences between them, even between Dutar (2-sting), Sitar (3-string), Chahartar (4-string) and other Persian stringed instruments but we are talking about the origin of them, especially Guitar. What does Kithara mean in Greek? Did Greeks invent it in 490 BC or import a musical instrument with the same name which was used for several hundreds years before this date in Mesopotamia and Persia?

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 06-May-2008 at 19:54

gcle2003, all things have not just been invented by Europeans, you know that Guitar comes from the Greek word "Kithara" which itself comes from the Old Assyrian word "Chetarah", please read it:

History of the Stringed Instrument, Music: http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPapers/Music/History_of_the_Stringed_Instrument.shtml

"Early Greek pottery depicts the kithara to have four strings, and later models included seven strings."

Don't you think that it was the same ancient Persian stringed instrument "Chahartar" which just means "four strings" (Chahar=Four & Tar=String)?

Please search about Chahartar (4-string) in the Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chahartar

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 06-May-2008 at 15:25

Originally posted by gcle2003 ... Why should anyone listen to you when you know nothing at all about music, let alone its history and development? It's not as if you'd ever found anyone authority that agrees with you, or any example of a European composition from the middle ages that shows any sign of influence from the Arab world.   Now apparently you're claiming that all Islamic music is the same, and the same as Arab music, which again shows your ignorance. Unless you mean Pakistanis and Indonesians aren't Islamic now? Their music has pretty little if any connection with Arab music either. The subcontinent has pretty much the same music everywhere. (Classically anyway.)   And that ludicrous laughing icon doesn't alter the fact you are making a fool of yourself here.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri pinguin, Almost all those musical instruments have been invented by Persians, not Arabs. You source about the Arabo-Andalusian music which calls it a style of Arabic music, itself says "The Persian musician Ziryâb (d. 857), who became court musician of Abd al-Rahman II in Cordoba, is usually credited with its invention." About Guitar: http://www.guitarschools.com/guitar-career-guidance.html "Earliest examples of the guitar can be traced back 5,000 years to Iran through ancient Susa carvings and statues."