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Forum LockedLost Roman Legion found in China

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JuMong View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lost Roman Legion found in China
    Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 04:45

Roman descendants found in China?


By Richard Spencer in Liqian, north-west China
Last Updated: 12:36am GMT 04/02/2007

  • Richard Spencer meets the residents of Liqian
  • Residents of a remote Chinese village are hoping that DNA tests will prove one of history's most unlikely legends — that they are descended from Roman legionaries lost in antiquity.

     
    Cai%20Junnian,%20Roman%20descendants%20found%20in%20China?
    Villager Cai Junnian with his green eyes and ruddy complexion

    Scientists have taken blood samples from 93 people living in and around Liqian, a settlement in north-western China on the fringes of the Gobi desert, more than 200 miles from the nearest city.

    They are seeking an explanation for the unusual number of local people with western characteristics — green eyes, big noses, and even blonde hair — mixed with traditional Chinese features.

    "I really think we are descended from the Romans," said Song Guorong, 48, who with his wavy hair, six-foot frame and strikingly long, hooked nose stands out from his short, round-faced office colleagues.

    "There are the residents with these special features, and then there are also historical records about the existence of these people long ago," he said.

    Studies claiming that Liqian has Roman ancestry have greatly excited the impoverished county in which it is situated. The village is now overlooked by a pillared portico, in the hope of attracting tourists. A statue at the entrance of the nearby county town, Yongchang, shows a Roman legionary standing next to a Confucian scholar and a Muslim woman, as a symbol of racial harmony.

    Even entrepreneurs have caught on: in "Imperial City Entertainment Street" there is a Caesar Karaoke bar.

     
    Rome%20to%20China%20map,%20Roman%20descendants%20found%20in%20China?

    The town's link with Rome was first suggested by a professor of Chinese history at Oxford in the 1950s. Homer Dubs pulled together stories from the official histories, which said that Liqian was founded by soldiers captured in a war between the Chinese and the Huns in 36BC, and the legend of the missing army of Marcus Crassus, a Roman general.

    In 53BC Crassus was defeated disastrously and beheaded by the Parthians, a tribe occupying what is now Iran, putting an end to Rome's eastward expansion.

    But stories persisted that 145 Romans were taken captive and wandered the region for years. Prof Dubs theorised that they made their way as a mercenary troop eastwards, which was how a troop "with a fish-scale formation" came to be captured by the Chinese 17 years later.

    He said the "fish-scale formation" was a reference to the Roman "tortoise", a phalanx protected by shields on all sides and from above. Gu Jianming, who lives near Liqian, said it had come as a surprise to be told he might be descended from a European imperial army. But then the birth of his daughter was also a surprise. Gu Meina, now six, was born with a shock of blonde hair. "We shaved it off a month after she was born but it just grew back the same colour," he said. "At school they call her 'yellow hair'. Before we were told about the Romans, we had no idea about this. We are poor and have no family temple, so we don't know about our ancestors."

    Another resident, Cai Junnian, 38, said his ruddy skin and green eyes meant he was now nicknamed Cai Luoma, or Cai the Roman, by friends. He has become a local celebrity, and was recently flown to the Italian consulate in Shanghai to meet his supposed relatives. The professor's hypothesis took almost 40 years to reach China. During Chairman Mao's rule, ideas of foreign ancestry were not ideologically welcome and the story was suppressed.

    Mr Cai said his great-grandfather told him that there were Roman tombs in the Qilian mountains a day and a half's walk away, but he had never connected them to the unusual appearance he inherited from his father. "People thought I had a skin problem," he said.

    The blood tests are part of a project undertaken by scientists and historians after local authorities loosened control over genetic research. The results will be published in a scientific journal. But Prof Xie Xiaodong, a geneticist from Lanzhou University, cautioned against over enthusiasm.

    "Even if they are descendants of the Roman empire, it doesn't mean they are necessarily from the Roman army," he said. "The empire covered a large area. Many soldiers were recruited locally, so anything is possible."

    The issue has split the university's history department, with some scholars supporting the claim, some rejecting it. Prof Wang Shaokuan poured scorn on Prof Dubs's thesis, saying the Huns themselves included Caucasians, Asians and Mongols.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/02/wroman02.xml

    http://www.china.org.cn/Beijing-Review/Beijing/BeijingReview/98Nov/bjr98-46-13.html

    http://www.italymag.co.uk/italy_regions/tuscany/2005/general/11/



    Edited by JuMong - 26-Feb-2007 at 05:06
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    Zagros View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 10:57
    lol. Green eyes = proof of Roman passage!
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 11:39
    When exactly will we find out about the Genetic tests?
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 11:48
    Originally posted by Zagros

    lol. Green eyes = proof of Roman passage!
     
    Yes, that would be remarkable enough in itself, as Romans in general were not particularly blonde, not particularly blue eyed and not particularly tall.... So how did they pass on characteristics they probably did not have on to their descandants?

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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 13:38
    Green eyes are the product of moderate or low amounts of melanin. Green eye color has often been attributed to lighter hair colors, such as blond and red. However, green eyes are not uncommon in those with darker hair.

    Green eyes are commonly found all over Europe. Mostly found in germanic, celtic peoples and some parts of Asia.

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    Anyway I don't buy this story Smile
     
     
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 17:11
    me too.
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 18:09
    The greatest occurrence of green eyes i have noted have been amongst the Celts, notably the Irish.
     
    The story or it's arguments are not entirely convincing.
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 18:23
    I know a man from Ilam with emerald green eyes, he must be Roman too.! j/k Green eyes are not exclusively European and probably evolved, along with Blue eyes, in Central Asia itself.

    Edited by Zagros - 26-Feb-2007 at 18:24
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Brasidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 23:39
    Wasn't there a group of Celts that lived in Western China? I saw a documentary around 5-8 years ago that discussed mummies found in Western China that all had blonde and red hair and they all wore tartan clothing. 
     
    If this is the case wouldn't it make more sense for these people to just have some admixture of those Celts in Western China?
     
    As for the Romans that seems an awefully long way for a group of Roman soldiers to travel in 17 years. How did these men survive against so many hostile and unknown people?
     
    It seems to me that the people of the area are just taking advantage of the "Theory" put forth. Of course I don't blame them one bit. They are a poor people with no other means of improving their status and allowing them to survive. So why not take advantage if Westerners want to flock there as tourist to see the "Lost Roman Legion"!
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 01:30

    A Wakhi girl in China (Wakhis are an Indo-European people who live in China from the ancient times, Wakhi language is in the Iranian group of languages.)
     
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 02:59
    maybe they are related to the Wusun or some other barbarian tribe that lived northwest of china.
         The Wusun were said to be green eyed and red bearded but some of their neighbours had blonde hair so any number of folks could be the perpetrators.
           I read some place that Marco Polo came across 10000 Alans in the employ of the Chinese Emperor so they also may be their forefathers.
         anyways your guess is as good as mine Confused


    Edited by Scorpian - 28-Feb-2007 at 04:48
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 09:26
    Evrywhere you can hear about the lost romans legions. in South of Iran in city of Dezful and shushtar you will get surprise of how many people are blond with blue eyes between datk skin locals, they beleive they are decendents of Roman legion captured by Shapur and took to the area to make a big dam.
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 09:57
    I think we all agree here: there are a hundred possibilities how the people of this village came by their light hair and eyes, but Roman armies are not amongst the more likely ones...Smile

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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 11:27
    agreedSmile
     
          yet another lost roman legion or whatWacko
     what do you reckon happened to the suppossed lost Roman Ninth Legion (Legio VIIII Hispania). Were they all massacred in Scotland or were they disbanded due to having disgraced themselves with some utter defeat. Based at York they all but disappeared around AD120 and were replaced by Legio VI Victrix.
         Anyways given this conversation about lost legions and their suppossed descendants can we presume that all green eyed blonde Scotsmen are themselves descended from the Roman ninth legion lost in antiquityLOL
          
                


    Edited by Scorpian - 28-Feb-2007 at 12:14
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 12:50
    last year the explained icelandic reader of a newspaper had to read, that a prof. from the university of ulanbator assured , a dispersed mongolian horsemen squad strayed after the battle of Legnica (April 1241) through north-europe and stranded on iceland at least. Sadly all evidences were melting like butter in the rarely icelandic sun, soon.

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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 13:40
    Yea but the Romans also employed Gauls and others in their legions. I think the legion at Amida was predominantly gallic.
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 12:44
    Whether it was the Romans or Caucasoid huns, I am very surprised by the degree in which the man in the photo exhibits Caucasoid features usually associated with Europeans.  Likewise the Wakhi girl in the other photo is not only caucasoid, but looks celtic.   Could her ethnic group be descendants of the people with red hair that have been found in tombs in the Gobi?   Are Wakhis Moslems?  If so, it does not appear that they have intermarried much with either Turkic Moslems or with Han Chinese Moslems (Hui)
     
    I guess both people demonstrate that people in remote areas can remain genetically isolated for centuries despite large scale migrations.       


    Edited by Cryptic - 05-Mar-2007 at 13:43
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 01:02
    Historically the west part of China has been home to and inhabited by numerous Indo-European peoples notably Iranians and Tocharians for millennia.

    Geographically China is a huge country which is as big as the whole Europe. It shares its western borders with Central Asian countries, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    I knew a Chinese person who had similar mixed caucasoid features as the man in the picture (although much younger), who used to tell me all the time that his ancestors were Persian merchants who came to china in ancient times.

    For the reasons mentioned above, I do not find it at all surprising to see some Chinese people with some Caucasoid admixture.

    Edited by omshanti - 06-Mar-2007 at 01:04
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